Yack Attack: The Girl of Fire and Thorns by Rae Carson

The Girl of Fire and Thorns
by Rae Carson
Published: September 20, 2011
Greenwillow

Once a century, one person is chosen for greatness.
Elisa is the chosen one.

But she is also the younger of two princesses, the one who has never done anything remarkable. She can't see how she ever will.

Now, on her sixteenth birthday, she has become the secret wife of a handsome and worldly king—a king whose country is in turmoil. A king who needs the chosen one, not a failure of a princess.

And he's not the only one who seeks her. Savage enemies seething with dark magic are hunting her. A daring, determined revolutionary thinks she could be his people's savior. And he looks at her in a way that no man has ever looked at her before. Soon it is not just her life, but her very heart that is at stake.

Elisa could be everything to those who need her most. If the prophecy is fulfilled. If she finds the power deep within herself. If she doesn’t die young.

Most of the chosen do.

Donna:So I have a severe issue with how Carson is brow-beating the issue of Elisa's weight down my throat. Is she supposed to be a 350 pound hypertensive teenager or is her self-perception so incredibly awful and she's really only 20 pounds heavier than your average twig? I liked the heavier set at the beginning but the girl is so incredibly downtrodden about her weight that I want to shake Carson and ask her WTF is wrong with her? Why is she doing this to her character? Is it some kind of Freudian projection? WHAT? But it's become such an overwhelming force in the story for me that it's hard to see anything else. And am I the only thing that thinks the God-given belly button lint is kind of...silly?

Sandy:I was going to ask how the reading was going for everyone but you beat me to it! I saw your post on tumblr about this and I knew going into this book that Elisa's weight was going to be something that the author kept referring to. Maybe my opinion will change later on but so far it doesn't bother me that Elisa keeps mentioning her weight. I just see it as another trait about her character and since she's a princess and princesses weren't expected to run around the palace or ride horses...yeah, she might be a little pudgy with all those sweets. I'm also wondering though if maybe Carson used Elisa's being fat as a way to contrast her with her sister Juana-Alodia. (btw I know the names have a kind of Spanish theme going on and that's fine but some names are just weird--I can't get over the prince's son being named Rosario. Guys can apparently have that name in Spanish but ew....just...no.)

Donna:I thought there was a Spanish hue to the words. Maybe Portuguese. But they still seem kind of smashy to me.

Sandy:The names are so old-fashioned. I only like the names Elisa and Hector :P

Melissa:Weight in books is a tricky issue. It seems, I think, that whenever an author wants to have a heavier-than-normal character, it becomes a Big Issue. But honestly: IRL, it IS a big issue. Especially at that age. I'm not rereading the book (shame on me, I know, but I have No Time. And I'm reading Dark Triumph instead.), but I did say this in my review of it: "Elisa with her eating issues and insecurities are quite hard to like. But, as the book goes on, she warms on you: it's truly a book about growth, about Elisa figuring out how to come into her own." I do have to admit, Donna, that I agree about the stone. It is quite weird. I didn't mind the names, though.

Sandy:Melissa, I can't blame you for not wanting to reread the book when you have The Dark Triumph with you.

Sya:Gar, I haven't started yet but this is usually the kind of thing that pisses me off.

Nicole:I haven't started yet -- it's my weekend project -- but isn't this set in a fantasy world? If it is, and the princesses are expected to be lazy and eat sweets and become fat, why is her weight an issue? (I haven't read yet, so I can't decide; I'm just curious.)

Sandy: Nicole, it's the way Elisa's weight keeps creeping back into focus throughout the story. Elisa is a comfort eater, she doesn't feel pretty and she compares herself to her sister a lot.

Sya:While I can see the author may be attempting to touch on important issues, it just sounds really irritating. Sandy's last comment makes it all sounds pretty unoriginal to the point where I'm not sure I can be arsed picking it up. Elisa sounds annoying.

Melissa: She IS annoying. AT FIRST. The POINT of the book (if I remember right... some help here Laura?) is Elise's growth arc. She's SUPPOSED to be annoying to the point of smacking her at first, but she's a different person by the end. And in the second book, she's really quite awesome.

Laura: I will comment on this. Let me collect my thoughts. I have them.

Sandy:Ahhh, Sya, don't let my comment stop you! Like Melissa says, Elisa is a little frustrating in the beginning because she lets herself be pushed around/talked out of things but she grows as a person as the story progresses. I also think the weight loss is a physical sign of her transformation as well because she doesn't hide behind her weight anymore. Also, being chubby is kind of related to childhood so maybe her shedding those pounds is also a representation of her internal growth... oh. looks like I had a lot more to say than I thought, hah.

Donna: I read that post that Carson did and quite frankly I think the only person that can't couldn't get past Elisa's weight was Carson. I found Elisa immediately likable aside from her I'M SO FAT NOM NOM NOM I'M SO UGLY NOM NOM NOM issue. I did not get that people looked at Elisa and thought she wouldn't amount to anything BECAUSE SHE WAS FAT. I figured they felt that way because, as I'm assuming how most people would think of princesses that don't really have much to do, is they're lazy and self-indulgent and can't be arsed to do much more than breathe and fuck for the good of the kingdom. The only reason the fat issue keeps popping up is because Carson keeps forcing it. She was in a particular mindset at the time she wrote the book, which is fine, but holy good mother of fuck give it a rest. I get it. Baby got back. Can we move the fuck on, PLEASE? I propose we turn it into a drinking came. Take a shot every time Elisa's weight is mentioned and the last one to survive the surefire alcohol poisoning wins.

Chachic: Oh hey, you guys are discussing this already! I haven't started reading. Will try to get to it this weekend.

Sya: I'm really struggling to get into this one. To be honest, I'm struggling to get into ANY book right now. Anyone got a cure for the dreaded reading fatigue?

Chachic: Okay, so I finally got to start the book and I just finished going through your comments. I didn't have a problem with the weight issue a couple of chapters into the story but yeah, you guys are right, Elisa keeps coming back to that. I mean, I'm not skinny either but I don't focus on my weight EVERY SINGLE TIME I eat. It does get a little frustrating. That's the only problem that I have so far. I don't mind the names, I like how they have a Spanish flavor because it reminds me of some Filipino names. Also, is it just me or is their religion somewhat based on Catholicism? The service reminded me of a Catholic mass, especially with rose - kind of like the Catholic Eucharist.

Nicole: I started reading the book and I thought, "hey, maybe we're picking up on something that might be subtle, that the author doesn't realize" but nope. You could literally replace chapters one through three with, "I'm a fat princess with a hot, kind husband and a Godstone in my (fat) belly (of sausage fatness) ... (fat)."

Melissa: Okay, it kind of makes me sad that all we're getting from this book is that Carson is obsessing about Elisa's weight. It also worries me that none of this bothered me when I read it.

Nicole: I'm liking the book outside of that -- I'm curious about the world and the Godstone -- but it's really hitting us over the head with it.

Sandy: Chachic, the religious theme throughout the book had me curious too. I found a review where the reviewer mentions something about it. I'm not sure if this reviewer is 100% right but like they said, it seems that Carson used Judeo-Christian elements.

Sandy: I also read somewhere that the Spanish influence was because she was working with Spanish-speaking coworkers at the time. I think it was on an interview on EW. And I feel like the odd man out on this but her referring to her weight still doesn't bother me or detract from the reading experience for me... although I wonder if I might be bias because I've always been kind of chubby ;P

Donna: I just want to make sure we're all on the same page here . . . ELISA HAS A MAGICAL BELLY BUTTON. Are we good? Again? ELISA HAS A MAGICAL BELLY BUTTON. Is this getting more and more FUCKING STUPID to anyone else that she keeps STICKING HER FUCKING FINGER IN HER NAVEL EVERY TIME SHE NEEDS SUPPORT FROM GOD? Elisa has BLESSED BELLY BUTTON LINT. The fuck....

Donna: And the weight issue doesn't go away. Even when Elisa tones up a bit she still makes an effort to note her excessive flapping skin just waiting to be refilled with fat. That's a paraphrase. I kid you not. EVERY. GODDAMN. CHAPTER. This can't be a drinking game because EVERYONE WOULD DIE.

Nicole: Donna, do you want me to start marking every time she mentions that she's fat or that she touches her stomach? I'm only four chapters in; it won't be hard to do.

Donna: Yes! We need to have a fat count! I bet it's up there with granite and russet and CHAGRIN in TWILIGHT. It bet it blows them away. The first handful of chapters are nothing but fat barf. We'd all be deliriously drunk by the first quarter of the book.

Nicole: I'll go back and mark them up. This'll be fun.

Sya: I can't get past the first chapter... I started a new book instead (The 5th Wave, very good). I am a bad YAcker. Or this is a bad book.

Chachic: Sandy, thanks for the link to that review! I feel like the weight becomes less of an issue in the latter half of the story? It doesn't bother me as much now. I'm about 70% into the novel and just think it's okay so far. I've seen mixed reviews for this so I'm not surprised. I keep hearing that the second book is so much better though.

Donna and Nicole, LOL good idea about counting those instances. :P

Sya, sorry to hear that you don't feel like reading this one! I think I've seen tweets about The 5th Wave, I should probably look up the premise for that.

Melissa: *throws in towel* Well I liked it. *sits in corner*

Donna: Laura needs to add her words. And yes, the weight issue lessens as the book goes on, from multiple times a page to probably once a chapter and more subtle. But even once I could wade through the FAT I'm not thrilled with the plot. It's okay but I'm not really invested in it. Although kudos to Carson for offing an integral character. Hooray for death!

Sandy: Chachic, you're welcome. I was curious about the religious aspect too because I was like, "this is very detailed and intricate...but is it really all made up??" I'm also waiting for Laura's words. o.o

Sandy: YES, I was actually upset when Important Character dies. Rae Carson has said she's not afraid  to kill people, and man she wasn't kidding!

Donna: That's what I like in my authors: the ability to murder their loved ones. FALLING KINGDOMS was the same way but alas, character death couldn't save that one either. Granted GIRL OF FIRE AND THORNS has a lot more going for it: it's better written, more interesting characters, a nicer, more detailed landscape although I do contest some of those details as they're rather inconsistent for a desert (a REAL desert, not a movie's interpretation of a desert). GoFaT is much more grounded and focused and while I like the concept of the Godstones (and the notion of the Inviernes harvesting them makes me throw up in my mouth) putting them in a person's belly button is just silly for me. I can't get past it. A navel with magical abilities. No... Did anyone other than Melissa like it so she's not alone in a corner without a towel? One should never be without a towel...

Sandy: I'm with Melissa! I enjoyed it, and I liked Elissa's journey in this one. I finished the book and I won't do spoilers but I like where she is by the end. (I'm not just saying that because I picked the book, hah.)

Nicole: I just got to chapter twelve; I'm liking what I've read so far -- I like girls who have to learn to navigate political fields, and I like how she's handling it.

On the other hand, the Godstone's location IS silly; and since I started it knowing the mentions of fat, I just... GAH. I want to strangle her over it. Just accept it and do your job already.

Here's the tallies of chapter 1 - 11. This ONLY includes outright comments about her weight (I'm fat, a sausage, etc.) This DOES NOT include references to her eating, her overeating, or "painting a portrait" (mentioning another character's skinniness) - all of those things which are done at least once per chapter.

Chapter One: 4
Chapter Two: 1
Chapter Three: 2
Chapter Four: 0
Chapter Five: 2
Chapter Six: 1
Chapter Seven: 1
Chapter Eight: 2
Chapter Nine: 1
Chapter Ten: 2
Chapter Eleven: 2

Sandy: ^I agree. I like how she's already attuned to the politics and that she can be decisive in that area when she's so uncertain about everything else. As for the Godstone's location... I didn't think its location was silly only because where else could the stone be? there are other areas of the body but those would just be awkward. o_O But now that I'm thinking about it, when a baby is born the umbilical cord is there so how did the stone.....oh whatever, I'm thinking about it too much

Nicole: Her Godstone appeared at her 'baptism,' so to speak, her naming ceremony -- she was a few months old.

Heidi:I am a slacker! I'm just starting this now...will be back to pat everyone on the back for their insightful thoughts in a couple of days (or you know, pick sides and battle to the death, whatever happens).

Sya: GoFaT. Ha ha ha ha ha! It's everywhere! Ahem. I'll leave now. *slinks away sniggering*

Melissa: Oh, yay, Sandy! ! I'm glad I'm not alone in the corner. And I can't believe I forgot my towel. Thank you, Donna. I never minded her fat references -- though, you're right, Donna and Nicole, they are many -- but rather enjoyed her growth arc. While she started out as a whiny brat, she was a strong character (though I never pictured her as beautiful, just capable) near the end. I kind of liked how religious it was; it's not often that a book has a decent religion that mostly makes sense (I'll concede: divine belly button lint is silly). I didn't mind the death, either. I wasn't overly fond of that character. And, I have to admit that my view of the first book was colored by The Crown of Embers, which I *really* liked.

Chachic: Got to the part where someone dies! I knew it, I had a feeling it would be that person. I don't mind the Godstone's location. I guess I'm just not as invested in Eliza as I'd like to be. That's probably why I'm not enjoying the book as much as I was expecting. Not even sure if I'll read the sequel after this.

Chachic: Hey, we haven't heard from Holly either.

Holly: I know I'm really late to the joke, but Go. Fat. Hahahaha. I just noticed it. :) To be honest, I've skimmed a lot of the comments. I read this last year and should've DNFed. There was no chance in hell that I was going to reread it for you guys (unless you want more GoFaT bashing after this?) The weight thing didn't bother me but Carson definitely beat it into the ground. The belly button jewel is silly but when I read it I was mostly just so embarrassed for Elisa because she had this sacred jewel inside her sausage roll of a belly. I was too busy not connecting with Elisa - and worse not caring for a single one of the flat secondary characters. I longed for Elissa to have some meaningful relationship before moving on from the marriage to the desert to where ever else she goes in the last part of the book. I agree that Elisa's transformation is great character development and I enjoyed some of the religious overtones but alas, this is another book that was not for me. I kept wishing she'd have stayed in the palace with her new husband and that a slow simmering romance would've developed between them by the end of the book. Instead we get to rush around with her from setting to setting, watching old and new characters usher in and out of her life. I definitely didn't care for the tacked on, underdeveloped romance with a ho hum male character either. So tell me Melissa, do I read TCoE after feeling this way? I was not planning on it.

Chachic: Oh yes, I'm not a fan of the romance in this one, either. It felt half-baked and wasn't developed very well. GoFat is a hilarious acronym for the book, with all its references to Elisa's weight issues. I'm not in love with the story but I don't hate it either. Like Holly said, this book is just not for me.

Sandy: lmao, GoFat. xDDD

Sya: Thank God you all found it funny... I was starting to feel like the naughty kid in class.

Donna: OMG GoFaT. OMG I love it! And I really love how Carson likes to kill characters. It makes me all warm and fuzzy on my insides. Nicole, those numbers would be much heavier if you included ALL GoFaT references. Heavily, heavily weighted. Har. I liked where the story went in the end but high holy hell did it take forever to get there. Like Holly I didn't really connect with anyone and I did like the religious references. Carson wasn't afraid to keep it religious and I liked that (for how unreligious I am). But the Godstone...so at her baptismal the Gallstone of God forced its way out of her body through her healing naval? That sounds horribly painful. Or was it more like POOF. Magic belly button. And I'm sorry...SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER at the end, when she connected that thing to her stomach and it started spinning I got the most ridiculous image in my head. I just can't do it. I can't take it seriously when her damn belly button spins like a cap with a propeller on it. Just...no.

Sandy: The belly button propeller thing was rather hilarious, I must admit. You know, I liked the secondary characters but I mostly connected with Elisa. Her character really carried the weight of the story (no pun intended).

Sandy: Melissa, I'm glad you liked the book! I was beginning to feel bad because no one was enjoying it as much as I was.

Sandy: As for the romance in this novel, I thought it was okay but nothing amazing...I was sad for what happened to that character, but I think he was just part of the process for Elisa to change. (plus there had to be room for the awesome bodyguard--I see possibilities there!)

Melissa: Oh, Sandy, there is. :D

Chachic: I finished reading the book and just had to laugh at what Donna said about the belly button propeller. I couldn't imagine it either. When I got to that part, I was like "huh?" I can see why other readers enjoyed reading this, it's very easy to get into, has good worldbuilding and interesting characters. Sadly, I just wasn't able to connect with any of them enough to be emotionally involved in the story.

Chachic: I had a feeling the romance in the second book would be about that guy that Sandy mentioned!

Sya: Despite my earlier declaration of defeat, I have been battling away with this book but now officially give up at about the half way mark. I basically agree with everything that Holly said. I can't connect with Elisa, I hate the fat references (because they feel clunky and are completely overdone) and the belly button thing actually makes me feel slightly queasy. Life is too short for me to finish this book.

Donna: GUYS. I know what Elisa's godly service is! It's so perfect! Carson is a genius! Wait for it...CAREBEAR STARE!!!

Heidi: Hahaha, Go Fat! I laughed so hard that DH demanding an explanation for my gaiety. Okay, so I finally finished this yesterday, and I'm in the corner with Sandy and Melissa, and my own Care Bear towel, because I really (for the most part) enjoyed this one. I think because the weight thing was so emphasized for me prior to reading, it honestly didn't bother me at all. Her fixation on it made sense to me, because being a teen and overweight SUCKS, and it is constantly on your mind (I gained at least 50 pounds at 16, it was miserable), and I would think especially for someone like a princess who will constantly be judged on her appearance. I can totes see how this annoys people though. I really liked Elisa from the get go, and loved that she was willing to take action and make decisions (unlike Alejandro), even though her confidence was initially lacking. I also really loved all of the religion, I thought it was really beautifully developed and worked to show a lot about faith and people's interpretation of God's will.

Things I didn't like: OMG the pinwheel was just cheesy, as were the last two 'let's talk about the message of this book' pages, but the God-given belly button didn't actually bother me before that. Like Donna, I love an author who will kill people off, but by the end I kind of felt like this was Carson's way of solving problems for herself when she'd written herself into a corner. I say this because I know which way the romance is going in future books, and I'm disappointed that this was Carson's way of making that happen.

Laura: Go Fat. I just sorta died because it's just so fitting. I'm pressed for time (as I have been for weeks) so I'm going to state my opinion with VERY LITTLE FACT TO SUPPORT IT. So ok, I liked the pretty world. I loved the magic, the sorta Spanish flare, all that royalty, wizards and I even got caught up in the god-stuff. That last part was a surprise but there was NO RELIGIOUS AGENDA in all that RELIGION, it was just simply part of the story and it was kinda cool and it worked. So lots of pluses there. Also, the bad guys were shaping up to be kind of bad ass. Nifty how they were using tools of someone else's religion against them. I couldn't picture Elisa's husband as ANYONE but Prince Humperdinck from The Princess Bride. He was like, sweaty-limp-palm oogie and I thank my stars that THE MARRIED PRINCESS STAYED ALL VIRGINAL AND SHIT (as if....really....as if) because I really didn't want him taking his clothes off. On to Elisa- she's a horrible, boring, pointless, pathetic character. Yes Melissa, I'm with you on the world and the fact that the story WAS to show Elisa's change but GOOD GOD DAMN, why can't a main character just be likeable for more than ten percent of the story? And that's being generous because Elisa merely went from repulsive to boring. All that self-loathing and self-pity....I secretly wanted the spy girl to kill her (yeah, I've forgotten all names at this point). There wasn't anyone to root for in this story (ok so maybe the guard captain and the assassin nurse maid). And was that a romance? Are you sure because THE CHARACTERS FELT NOTHING AND THEREFORE I FELT NOTHING. Aside from wanting to bitch-smack the cake out of Elisa's face and watch the chewed, mushy, bits go flying out of her mouth (it was beat to death, dear fucking Book Lords in Heaven it was BEAT TO DEATH), my main issue was that Carson simply SUCKS SUCKS SUCKS at characters. They all sucked. All of them. It was an entire cast of SUCK. She did build a very pretty world, rich with detail, history, imagination and magic and I enjoyed reading because I LOVED where I was- just not who I was with. It had soooooo much potential as a fantasy novel. Why not leave it at that? Why not write a great fantasy story and let your readers escape to this marvelous place of the author's imagination and mix and mingle with unique people that, if they didn't enhance your world, didn't kill it either? WHY, WHY, WHY try to make this an "issue" book? It needs to be labeled as such to protect the innocent fantasy reader.

Laura: And the stomach stone......NO....just NO. I kept screaming at it, "YOU ARE NOT HYGIENIC!"

Laura: But looking back (and this is it) I'd say over all, even with the issues (oh so many of them) I generally LIKED the story. Granted....I also LIKE the House of Night series. So....there ya go.

Janice: I'm 100 pages from the end. So I can't stand Elisa's lack of self-confidence at the beginning of this book but I think her poor self image is part of her character arc. We get browbeaten by her comparisons with her sister and the constant comments about what she thinks other people are thinking of her, but with the exception of that little boy, I can't tell if she's REALLY that big or if it's all in her head. I think she may be overweight but not really in the way she perceives it. I thought maybe that the idea of having someone insecure and overweight was a different thing and maybe not a bad idea, perhaps refreshing even, but I think I'd be happier if she accepted herself first before she loses the weight from her adventuring. That said, I can't fault the book for having Elisa constantly go on about her weight because this could be realistically part of someone's character. Maybe Elisa has an eating disorder - she definitely does eat to fill a void, and eats until she feels physically ill. Also she is treated like a child by a lot of people and kept ignorant about her own life and doesn't feel in control - and eating disorders are often very much about fighting for control. I have mixed emotions about how Elisa's discomfort with her body is conveyed, but I think it could be worse. For instance I will always and forever hate Bridget Jones' Diary for saying she weighs 120lbs and needs to go on a diet. This messed with my mind. How TALL IS SHE? NEVER MENTIONED. If that's not something that could make a female reader feel like crap, I don't know what is.

Janice: Oh so can we talk about the romance some more? I want to know: am I the only one who ships Elisa with Hector? Her husband: fickle and weak despite being pretty and nice, and the other guy: nice enough but not much personality. But Hector is all quiet and broody with flashes of cute when he smiles and lets his guard down. No? Am I the only one who thinks this?

Nicole: I ship Elisa with nobody because I want her to realize her self-worth and kick ass and become queen in her own right because she's a strong independent Godspoken who don't need no man.

Sya: I second Nicole.

Laura:Yes. What Nicole said.

Janice: I kind of get what you're saying - she doesn't need to end up with anybody, and I agree, but don't think self-worth and kicking ass should have anything to do with if she's in a relationship or not. If you're saying she should be comfortable with herself and be OK with going it alone, yeah, so true. But I don't necessarily think "no man" has to be the way to prove this.

Nicole: I'm of the belief that one shouldn't enter into a relationship feeling inferior to the other person; if she hates herself, she's always going to doubt that. So be strong and single and awesome for a while.

Melissa: I adored Hector. Enough said. Read the second book, Janice.

Heidi: I think that going into book 2, Elisa has begun to come into her own and acknowledge herself a strong and competent individual that will open her up for a healthy non-dependent relationship. I knew Hector's name going in, so I just assumed that's the way the romance was going (though PLEASE DEAR GOD TELL ME HE LOSES THE MUSTACHE), but I LOVE that Carson didn't even touch on going there in book 1, because Elisa did have so much growing to do first. I loved how she no longer craved Alejandro's affection and attention by the end, and really stood on her own. Also, I think the fact that Humberto harbored affection for her that she knew wasn't based on her physical person was a big boost for her confidence-wise. I don't think book 1 Elisa could have a healthy relationship, I think book 2 Elisa probably can.

Donna: I was a fan of Hector. I'll say that. And based on later descriptions of Elisa she's not just a little fluffy. There was mention of her having to lift up her stomach in order to see the Godstone, which leaves me to believe it's big enough to roll over. That kind of helped position her size in my head and put it into context more. Regardless of height that's a hefty amount of weight.

Sandy: LOL Heidi, I thought the same thing about the mustache! That made me remember something else I wanted to touch upon: I really liked Elisa's interactions with Rosario, especially when they meet for the first time he basically embarrasses her in front of oh, say, the majority of the kingdom. xD

Sandy: PS--I am glad I chose this book. *looks at comments count* So much discussion...

Heidi: I loved her with Rosario too! I was shocked that she apparently "had no idea what to do with kids" because she was much better with him than pretty much everyone in the palace.

Sandy:Better than the maid, and definitely better than his own father. I am looking forward to seeing them in the sequel.

Heidi: Oh! We have not cast RA. Just sayin' necessities before we YAck off.

Sya: Heidi, you are a true YAcker.

Nicole: Wouldn't he be her husband? He is supposed to be an older, very attractive man, after all. (Also, we're wrapping up and I STILL HAVEN'T FINISHED and I feel guilty. But it's not due to lack of interest. Stupid essays demanding to be written.)

Laura: RA will NOT play her husband!! NO NO NO.

Nicole:I can't imagine anybody else suiting him, though, unless he's her father?

Sya: But who else???

Melissa: We age Elisa up and he plays HECTOR. Of course.

Sya: Melissa, you win.

Chachic: Yep, I agree. RA can be Hector.

YAck Attack: Tiger Lily by Jodi Lynn Anderson

Tiger Lily 

by Jodi Lynn Anderson

Published: July 3, 2012

HarperTeen

From Goodreads:

Before Peter Pan belonged to Wendy, he belonged to the girl with the crow feather in her hair. . . .

Fifteen-year-old Tiger Lily doesn't believe in love stories or happy endings. Then she meets the alluring teenage Peter Pan in the forbidden woods of Neverland and immediately falls under his spell.

Peter is unlike anyone she's ever known. Impetuous and brave, he both scares and enthralls her. As the leader of the Lost Boys, the most fearsome of Neverland's inhabitants, Peter is an unthinkable match for Tiger Lily. Soon, she is risking everything—her family, her future—to be with him. When she is faced with marriage to a terrible man in her own tribe, she must choose between the life she's always known and running away to an uncertain future with Peter.

With enemies threatening to tear them apart, the lovers seem doomed. But it's the arrival of Wendy Darling, an English girl who's everything Tiger Lily is not, that leads Tiger Lily to discover that the most dangerous enemies can live inside even the most loyal and loving heart.

From the New York Times bestselling author of Peaches comes a magical and bewitching story of the romance between a fearless heroine and the boy who wouldn't grow up.

Heidi: BRING ON THE FEELS.  

Heidi: Also: The pirates’ captain was not a large man. Yet the others were clearly in thrall to him, their bodies turned toward him nervously. His wavy black hair was just going gray, he had high bony cheeks, and a piece of old, stained cloth tied around his head to hold back his hair.

Pretty sure this calls for slightly-graying wavy haired Hobbit RA. 

 

Nicole: I feel like a bad YACKer -- I've had the book for a month and still have no incentive to pick it up.

Chachic: Good one, Heidi! Didn't even think of that until you pointed it out. So yay, we've got RA covered for this book.

Nicole, sorry to hear that you haven't been in the mood to read Tiger Lily. Don't force yourself because you might not end up liking it if you do. I thought it was lovely though. Probably my favorite YAckers' pick so far (I've only participated in three discussions, I think?)

Nicole: Maybe the YAck can convince me!

Janice: I’m 30 pages away from the end, then I can talk about it. But I feel like this is a "first love" story. And it's going to end in this way that is going to be sad but also right for spoilery reasons which.. should I get into now, or are people still reading this book? Anyway, It's like this inevitable thing I feel like you can see coming from the first page. And the writing is incredible.

Janice: Ok, I finished it. Kinda broke my heart but felt like it had to go that way. Sigh-sob. This was a good one though, really.

Chachic: Janice, that's how I felt about it as well! That it was about first love and how sweet and tentative it was. But right from the start, I knew that there was going to be heartbreak and I was preparing myself for it. It's a really good book though. Jodi Lynn Anderson has beautiful words, I kept highlighting passages that I liked.

Angie: Well, I loved it. As you know. The things is, I think it shows a genuine skill to be able to take a story so familiar, so inevitable in readers' minds and breathe new life into it while staying true to the original and maintaining that tension and that relationship with your readers. Genuine skill. To say nothing of the words. WHICH WERE ALL THE RIGHT ONES.

Holly: Each and every one was lovely, Angie. And I didn't mind that it was bittersweet. It's Peter Pan after all, so that's a given if the retelling is going to be any good.

Chachic: Angie, that's a perfect description of what a good retelling should be. Tiger Lily was definitely that! It makes me want to read the original novel because I still haven't done that (I've only seen the Disney animated film).

Heidi: I'll admit, I had a really hard time with the way this one was written for about 125 pages or so. Using Tinker Bell's first person perspective really jolted me out of the story to start--I feel like we'd fall into these deep emotional third person observations and then be ripped back into Tink's head. I wasn't sure I was going to be able to get over that but I did! I was able to fall into it and blew through the rest of the book in one sitting.

Bittersweet endings are honestly my favorite, because they are a real reflection of how life hurts, but it goes on, and that Happily Ever After really doesn't exist. I love how Anderson looked at first love with all its raw imperfections, and gave them something after the heartache.

The other big thing I noticed was how much this book was about who you choose to put your faith in. Tink loves Peter, but ultimately puts her faith in Tiger Lily, as do Pine Sap and Tik Tok. The pirates put their faith in Hook, the Lost Boys in Peter, the Sky Eaters in Phillip, Phillip in God--and so many of these 'leaders' fail. It's really heartbreaking.

Janice: I agree with Heidi that it was an odd choice for Tink to be the narrator when Tiger Lily is the focus. You had to go with the plot device that fairies can read feelings and thoughts from people as she explained it in the first couple of pages, but it was still an odd POV. I also wasn't sure why Tink ever needed to learn how to read so anything where she was reading something I was thrown out a bit. But these were minor issues for me.

I LOVE what Heidi says about the story being about who you put your faith in! I can see that! I was thinking something along the lines of how the story shows something about people and their capacity for really understanding each other. It felt like when one person wanted the other to be something they weren't, that's when things got pear-shaped versus letting them just be who they were. I was thinking about Tiger Lily and Peter versus her relationship with Pine Sap mostly, but it makes sense in the other relationships too. But I like seeing it in terms of faith in someone better.

I don't love bittersweet endings, but I liked this one because it satisfied something in me in regards to how I feel about relationships. But I have to say I'm more OK about how Tiger Lily ended up than how Tik Tok ended up. What happened for Tiger Lily hurt more while I was reading it because she was the focus, but Tik Tok - that one feels like it hurts longer because I keep thinking: what happened? And piecing it from what little there is, and still not knowing but trying to empathize: feels worse. 

Chachic: There were so many passages I loved and I wished I had taken note of. I am forever lazy about doing that and have to go flip back and find things after a book is done.

Angie: From the dedication to the prologue to that breathtaking moment when Tink comes THIS CLOSE to seeing Peter's face in London and turns back at the last second because she can't bear to, Anderson kills it word-wise. I also love that she made me want to read the story over and over again from each character's perspective. What I mean is, she made it so I had a hard time hating anyone. Not for lack of trying! But in the end, I wanted to know more about them all so I could love them the way I did Tink and Tiger Lily, Peter and Pine Sap. I would read this book from Hook's perspective in a heartbeat. Her glimpses of him were arresting.

Holly: I know, Angie, I wanted to hate Smee (who was very creepy), but I couldn't! Beyond his characterization, it also helped that he never even got close to hurting Tiger Lily. I couldn't have forgiven him if he had. I'm glad that the conflict between Peter and Hook never played out, so the focus could be on the many complex and heartfelt relationships. I loved the Tink/TL/PP triangle, Tiger Lily and Tik Tok, and Tiger Lily and Pine Sap relationships the most I think. I didn't get to know Wendy enough to feel more than ambivalence towards her but I do think that her take charge personality was more what Peter needed in the long run (but why couldn't it have been Tiger Lily? *sob*) Also, Janice, my heart ached a lot for Tik Tok, how he loses himself slowly until there's nothing left for him but to die. So sad. I'm glad that Pine Sap got his HEA though.

Holly: Also, I wish I hadn't been sick when I was reading the last third. I didn't mark any of my favorite passages, Chachic! I think I *need* my own copy to reread, stroke, whatever. And Janice and Heidi, not that I seek them out, but I think some of my favorite books have bittersweet endings. I guess I'm one of those people who like a good cry/heartache in the end to feel like everything's right in the world.

Chachic: I didn't have an issue with the story being told from Tink's POV. Like Janice said, I assumed it was because she can read feelings and thoughts so as readers, we can see inside the characters' hearts and minds. Also, since Tink can't really speak, her storytelling was a good way of letting readers hear her voice.

I love that Heidi pointed out that the story is about choosing to put your faith in someone and how that's portrayed in the different groups within the book. Because it really is about that! Choosing to believe in someone and respecting and loving that person for who she/he is.

I'm a big fan of happy endings but I love bittersweet stories because they feel realistic. Like what happened between Tiger Lily and Peter is how first love really is - hesitant and uncertain and an exploration of emotions that are new to both of them. How they're never sure of what the other person is feeling or thinking of. And how things don't always work out the way they expect them to. Jodi Lynn Anderson nailed it with this one.

I also felt really bad about Tik Tok, I wish things could have ended differently for him. I loved how he was at the start and then things came crashing down on him later on.

Heidi: I think in the end Tink's perspective worked, because she was more open about what Tiger Lily was feeling than Tiger Lily ever would have been herself.

Tik Tok's story broke my heart! I feel like Tiger Lily really let him down in the end. I'm not sure if she could have done anything to prevent Phililp's influence, but she didn't try, and multiple people asked her to.

I marked A LOT of passages in this one. The dedication "For the girls with messy hair and thirsty hearts." is one of my favorites ever, and in the end I think I added like 4-5 quotes to Goodreads. My FAVORITE passage in the book (the part that did make me tear up) was when Tink was contemplating when it was that Tiger Lily stopped aging, and liked to believe it was this regular moment in a regular day that was the most important thing that ever happened to her rather than any of the major life/death events that occurred in the story.

I also agree with Angie, I'd read this story over and over from any perspective, the one that most interests me being Hook's.

Sya: Obviously, I didn't read this. I'm just here to remind whoever is writing this up to remember the new "Who Would Richard Armitage Play" feature, as debuted last month. As Queen YAcks, Laura and I decree is must be so. At least, I do and I think it's a safe bet that Laura also does.

Nicole: That was the first comment, Sya. It has already been decided.

Chachic: Heidi, I agree. Tink is more attuned to Tiger Lily's feelings than Tiger Lily herself so the perspective really worked. And of course, I liked seeing her follow the other characters as well.

I did kind of feel that Tiger Lily let Tik Tok down a bit, especially since he asked her to talk to Philip. I don't think Tiger Lily could have done anything thought. The guilt at what happened will probably eat at her for the rest of her life.

What do you girls think of the cover? While I don't hate it, I'm not exactly a big fan. I would have liked it better if the cover design featured a fierce Tiger Lily instead of Tink.

Chachic: Nicole, have we convinced you to read this one?

Nicole: You’re making it sound amazing, actually, and I want to read it just for the WORDS. But not until after I read the original Peter Pan!

Chachic: Yes, read it for the WORDS! I haven't read the original Peter Pan either. That's why I checked with Angie first if it's okay to plunge into Tiger Lily even if I haven't read the original and it's totally fine.

Angie: Totally fine. Because it happily seems to be one of those retellings that works for those who love the original and those who hate it. Gosh, I love those kinds of retellings.

Chachic: Yep, those kinds of retellings are the best!

Angie: I have to say that another reason I liked that it was from Tink's POV is that she's a character who often gets maligned in adaptations, and I knew there was more to her. Her loyalty to Tiger Lily (and that moment when she realizes TG knew she was there all along) kills me. It's the same thing Anderson does with Hook. Black-and-white villain? I call shenanigans. I couldn't look away from him. And it was the same with Tink.

Heidi: Chachic, I had thoughts on the cover too. I used to be really confused by it, because I thought it was supposed to be Tiger Lily (I didn't realize Tink told the story until recently). I thought it was a) whitewashed and b) didn't accurately reflect what Tiger Lily would wear. I like it more since realizing what it is, but agree that it should've featured TL.

Angie: I totally agree! This one works for everyone, and part of what I loved is that it made me enjoy this character I'd always found REALLY annoying/bratty (Tink).

Janice: I read the original Peter Pan (lonnnngg ago), but I agree with Angie that this works for those who loved the original and those who didn't. And I agree with pretty much her whole last comment.

Melissa: Interestingly, Nicole, I'm not sure this draws on the Peter Pan book as much as it did the movie. Or, maybe that was just me: I kept seeing the movie (both the Disney animated which I hate and the live action with Jason Isaacs, which I love) in my brain. As for the rest of the comments, I agree. There is really nothing more to add. It was a good retelling of a male-centric story, and I appreciated the fleshing out of the female characters.

Chachic: Heidi, I hope the paperback will feature Tiger Lily on the cover. Oh I haven't watch the live action Peter Pan movie, maybe I should check it out since you loved it, Melissa. I also want to get a nice edition of Peter Pan (maybe the Puffin Classics one) so I could finally read it.

Heidi: Melissa, I should probably check out the live action too (I hate the Disney animated film,which is why I didn't bother). I do admit to loving Hook despite my hatred of Robin Williams. RU-FI-O!!!

Angie: The live action one with Jason Isaacs is so good. I love watching it with my kids.

Holly: Does anyone else have something to add? If not I'll get the post ready. I'm sorry I wasn't around that much for this YAck, but when I love something unequivocally sometimes there are no words to describe that feeling. Also, leave links to your reviews and I will include them at the end of the post per usual.

General consensus? Tiger Lily has WORDS, and we loved them all.

YAckers reviews:

Angie @ Angieville

Heidi @ Bunbury in the Stacks
Melissa @Book Nut 

Yack Attack: Paper Valentine by Brenna Yovanoff

Paper Valentine
by Brenna Yovanoff
Published: January 8th, 2013
Razorbill

From Goodreads:
The city of Ludlow is gripped by the hottest July on record. The asphalt is melting, the birds are dying, petty crime is on the rise, and someone in Hannah Wagnor’s peaceful suburban community is killing girls.

For Hannah, the summer is a complicated one. Her best friend Lillian died six months ago, and Hannah just wants her life to go back to normal. But how can things be normal when Lillian’s ghost is haunting her bedroom, pushing her to investigate the mysterious string of murders? Hannah’s just trying to understand why her friend self-destructed, and where she fits now that Lillian isn’t there to save her a place among the social elite. And she must stop thinking about Finny Boone, the big, enigmatic delinquent whose main hobbies seem to include petty larceny and surprising acts of kindness.

With the entire city in a panic, Hannah soon finds herself drawn into a world of ghost girls and horrifying secrets. She realizes that only by confronting the Valentine Killer will she be able move on with her life—and it’s up to her to put together the pieces before he strikes again.

Paper Valentine was chosen for our February YAck.  This discussion is exciting in that it introduces our lovely new YAcker, Heidi, we have the inaugural appearance of stunning new feature, Who Would Richard Armitage Play?, and we learn a new word.  As per usual, this discussion contains spoilers, bad language and a complete lack of objectivity. 

Sandy: Has the conversation for Paper Valentine officially started yet? o.o

Nicole: Nope.

Nicole: But I guess it has now!

Donna: I believe Brenna may be a kindred spirit.

Chachic: I should start reading it!

Melissa: That makes two of us, Chachic!

Angie: Three...

Heidi: Four...I'll probably start tomorrow. Ish. Depending on how snowpocalypse 2013 goes down round these parts.

Later...

Heidi: So...this is like a time warp to the '90s, right? Because the blurb said nothing about that, but the bleached hair, pay phones, and fact that there are still photo shops with enough print business to sustain themselves is giving me all sorts of flashbacks.

Donna: I definitely had a flashback to my high school days but I figured it was just my own head movies doing that. But now that you mention it Finny is looking rather like the toughs I used to see in the scary wing at school.

Chachic: So I started reading a couple of pages and I just wanted to ask, is this a scary novel? Because I'm alone in the flat and I'm a big scaredy-cat. I don't even watch horror movies.

Heidi: I've read 1/4 of it so far and it's not scary, but it could be headed for disturbing territory. My barometer's off because I like that sort of thing, but I think you're good for a while.

Chachic: Okay, thanks for the heads up! I'm too sleepy to read more tonight but I hope I'll have more time for it tomorrow.

Heidi: Yeah...there are parts you'll probably find scary. Heads up.

Sandy: Has anyone noticed how Brenna's writing has this kind of gravity to it? Like she can be talking about slurpies and it's SO INTENSE. o_O

Sya: Yes! It's all very weighty. But that kind of works with the oppressive atmosphere in this book. However, as with her first book, I found the end weak. Not the actual climax but what came after it. It's like she's great at all the intense stuff but once it's done and the tension defused her writing becomes awkward, almost twee. I liked the book as a whole but the last few pages weren't great and I hated the last line.

Donna: What is twee?

Nicole: I don't know what twee is but I have an overwhelming urge to use it to describe everything in my life. "This class is so twee!" "That outfit is twee." "I hate you! You're so twee!" "Oh my gosh, you are adorable! So twee!"

Heidi: Urban Dictionary definition here. It's actually a funny choice of word on Sya's part since at one point Hannah describes one of her dresses as a bit twee.

Sya: Yes, that's what it means. I hadn't actually realised it was in the book - it must have been lingering in my subconscious. On reflection, a better word would be trite.

Donna: I don't like the "twist" at the end simply because I didn't really find it all that twisty. Connor reminded me of the instigating crazy douche in Tucker and Dale vs Evil so I couldn't take him seriously. Not to mention I didn't think he was present enough to have it turn out that way. And the syrupy ending was all rather TWEE.

Heidi: Yeah I didn't find the twist (or the pre-twist) outcomes very believable. I suppose the book's unique for not following normal serial killer profiling at all, but that's also what made it unbelievable for me. I hate that thrillers almost always require villains monologuing about their dastardly deeds. Liked the rest of it quite a bit though!

Melissa: I was wondering who called it. I didn't, though I guess I can see where you're all coming from it being not believable. I don't know if a teenage boy would be that sophisticated; it seemed (in my infinite experience watching TV crime shows) that the murders were more.... adult in nature. And the whole monologuing thing was a bit much. That said, I'm not sure I ever really liked Hannah. I felt her pain, for sure -- it was an intense book -- but I didn't really connect with her as a character.

Donna: Three for the monologue. It's a bit typical. I mean while he was yammering on what stopped her from grabbing a stick and shanking his ass in the throat? WHEN WILL VILLAINS LEARN TO JUST SHUT UP AND KILL PEOPLE?  And now that I think about it Hannah was really more of a conduit to get me through the story than anything I really connected it. I did like the story; I loved the thriller aspect and I think YA needs more of it. I would have liked to have Lillian be the only ghost in the story, though, and the rest be more of an insinuation of something supernatural than BAM. Ghosts. I think it would have been creepier.

Melissa: I didn't mind the extra ghosts, Donna, especially at the end when they were totally creeping him out. I do like the way you put it about Hannah, her being a conduit. She really was.

Laura: I can't read your comments yet because I'm still reading the book. It is mediocre AT THIS POINT and I'm seriously hoping for something to happen. I hate Lillian and want her to go away or be exorcised or go to hell, or wherever it is people go when they're really irritating. I am loving the little sister most of all, which has me afraid that she is in fact, WEARING A RED SHIRT. I love that Finn is missing a finger- like in Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell where the Man With the Thistledown Hair kept Lady Pole's finger as a symbol of his claim of half her life in Faerie. All that makes me hope that HE IS MORE THAN MEETS THE EYE, OR AT THE VERY LEAST SOMEONE IS BECAUSE THIS IS RATHER DULL AND PLODDING.

Chachic: Me too, I can't read the comments yet because I'm still in the middle of the book. And yes, also waiting for more exciting things to happen.

Melissa: Oh, it's really slow to get started. Lots and lots of angst. But it does pick up somewhere in the middle.

Nicole: It's really fun for me to read these comments because I'm about to start The Replacement. And by fun, I mean I don't know if I'm going to like or hate it.

Heidi: I'm with Donna on Hannah being a conduit--I never really connected to her either, but like Laura I was a huge fan of the little sis. My favorite aspect of this was all the creepiness, I didn't mind the other ghosts but it did get to a cheesy point. DEAD PEOPLE IN WATER TERRIFY ME YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW MUCH.

Melissa: The more I think about this, the more I'm coming to the conclusion that while it's a great ghost story, it's not a great murder mystery, and I'm not sure the two of those things worked especially well together.

Heidi: Yeah, can we acknowledge how there's that moment of gravitas where Hannah points out that the serial killer staging represents childhood, and you think it's going to be this big thing, and then they barely acknowledge it for the rest of the book? That bugged me.

Donna: Heidi, you just don't GET IT. She's SMART. Only the SMART girl figures shit out like that. The fact that is was totally IRRELEVANT to the rest of the story is, in fact, IRRELEVANT. BOW TO THE AWESOME OF THE SMART GIRL. I just remembered that I wanted to say this two days ago. Yay memory! I get really annoyed when a character gets beaten up by the author/her own personal head movies when she makes a perfectly logical leap of questioning just who someone really is. When Finny was pulled in for questioning? I was just downright annoyed by the berating that came from inside her head as if she did something wrong. All signs pointed to him and the reality is she didn't really KNOW him. Yeah, she went to school with him but she didn't know who his friends were, why he lost his finger, that he lived with his aunt, that they're an open foster family. Not to mention HE SCRAPED HER FACE WITH ICE when they were little. So when things started to go sour why WOULDN'T she question him? Why did she have to beat herself up over it? It's one thing to feel guilty after the fact when he's cleared but if he's all like, you don't trust me? I''d be like I DON'T KNOW YOU. But she took it to a whole level of self flagellation that just got on my nerves.

Sya: Yeah, what Donna said but I thought that a lot of that was meant to represent that she was surrounded by frenemies (including Lilian) who had constantly made her second guess her own judgement. Talking of which, Angelie (was that her name) was a brilliant bitch. Of the book as a whole, I just found it had too many threads. Ghosts, anorexia, bad boys, family, frenemies, murder. I thought that the murders were deliciously creepy and she should have built the story more around that issue. In fact, I probably wouldn't have missed the ghosts at all and found the initial Ouija board angle stunk of bad exposition/poor foreshadowing etc. I think that Brenna Yovanoff has a talent for starkly beautiful writing and clearly an eye for darkness but ultimately she shoved so much into this one that the myriad parts overwhelmed what could have been an interesting whole. Saying that, I couldn't put it down. Well, until the evil monologuing by Connor, at which point I couldn't pick it up.

Heidi: I do like that Finny didn't/wouldn't hold Hannah's suspicions against her though--he was very self aware of how things looked in regard to himself, and I agree with Sya that it reflected Hannah's long standing emotionally abusive friendships. I also agree that there was just SO MUCH going on. It didn't actually bother me while I was tearing through it, but after the fact I can look back and see how much stronger certain areas would have been if others hadn't been in there to dilute things.

Chachic: Okay, I just finished the book so I've gone through your comments. First off, I just wanted to say that I probably wouldn't have read Paper Valentine if it wasn't a YAckers pick, I'm really not a fan of horror books (or movies or even horror stories). Having said that, I was prepared to like this one because I've been hearing good things about Brenna Yovanoff's writing. Unfortunately, I found the whole thing just okay. Like you guys said, there was just TOO MUCH going on, I wasn't sure what the story's focus was. Plus the revelation about the killer(s) was kind of a letdown, I don't know why but I was expecting more. Like Heidi mentioned, maybe an explanation of all the toys and how that represented childhood. My reaction was mostly, "that's it?" I mean it couldn't have been that simple and easy to get away with several murders, right?

Melissa: Chachic, I know, right? It seemed too pat. Especially the end.

Chachic: Melissa, exactly. I also agree with what you said that the murders seemed too sophisticated for a high school boy.

Nicole: For those who have read  The Replacement, how does it compare?

Sandy: I haven't gotten in too far (classes getting in the way...I'm also considering adding another course into my schedule -I'm a masochist!) BUT from what I've read so far...I like The Replacement more. But that could change...must read on..

Holly: Ok, I finished this earlier today and finally had a chance to read through all of the comments. I'm not really sure where to start with how I felt about Paper Valentine. The fact that I had 100 pages left and I wasn't looking forward to reading them says a lot. If I hadn't already made it that far and it wasn't a YAckers pick (how dare I miss two months in a row??) I would've felt perfectly fine at calling it a DNF. I didn't know much about Brenna Yovanoff before this except that she is one of the Merry Sisters of Fate, and anyone who is one of Maggie Stiefvater's exclusive critique partners should be taken seriously. I'm also not necessarily turned off by ghost stories, but how do I describe this mess of a book? I agree, Sya, Brenna (as I take a moment to admire the name, which is also the name of my daughter) was ALL OVER THE PLACE. There was no focus whatsoever, and the book obviously suffered from it. There were far too many ideas going on. If I had my pick I wanted it to be more of a murder mystery, especially after the serial killer "theme" is introduced. Call me morbid but I love me some Dexter or Barry Lyga. Sorry this is getting long, so can I just agree with everything negative that's been said? The lack of focus combined with my ambivalence towards Hannah (Melissa and Donna), annoyance of Lillian (Laura), the boring predictability of the cute little sister being targeted, both what'shisname and Connor being the suspects (Heidi), and the let down that was the last few pages of Brenna trying to conclude a scatter-brained book, to say Paper Valentine didn't work for me would be an understatement. End rant.

Chachic: I pretty much agree with what Holly said (I also didn't want to miss a discussion two months in a row) except that I did care a little bit about Hannah, just not enough to get past everything else that I didn't like about the book.

Laura: Man. I'm so disappointed. This makes the second Yovanoff book that has left me feeling blah and I LOVED The Replacement. With the small exception of the kid sister, there wasn't anyone likable in the entire story. Wait. That's not right. There wasn't a single character developed enough that I got to know them enough to like them. I mean really? When it was all said and done, we knew as much about these people as when we started. I couldn't even be shocked at Conner being the bad guy because, well *shrug* I didn't know him so I couldn't really give a shit. Lillian. Ugh. She seemed like a horrible friend...in both life and death and Hannah would have probably grown more as a person if she wasn't ever around. I couldn't stand her and other than being the reason for both Hannah's oddness and her angst...did she really contribute anything to the story? So there's all that, but my big thing is that NOTHING HAPPENED. We have a haunting.....and nothing really happens. We have a tiny romance....and nothing really happens (I DID feel it was instalove, even if they have known each other forever because they knew about as much about the other as WE did). We have mean girls...and nothing really happens (save for that tacky, tacky kiss). We have, well, just about everything, and nothing really happens. Boo. I went ahead and pictured the dad as hot, just because the story needed something and if we have to cast Richard Armitage in everything (even if it's horrible) we can let him play Decker. Oh and exactly what Holly said.

Chachic: LOL at Richard Armitage as Decker. I can't imagine him with a shaved head and tattoos.

Laura: Yes and what whoever said about the shrine to childhood and then nothing. I'm all like "Oh really? Do tell." and then it's never picked back up. Even when Conner was going on about it (yeah I pretty much skimmed his Dr. Evil moment too because it was DULL DULL DULL) I kept looking for some insight as to WHY. As that was the end of the story and there hadn't been a single, well-thought-out idea YET, I don't know why I was expecting it. Chachic oh I can. I can imagine him all kinds of ways.

Chachic: I'm sure you could, Laura.

Melissa: I do have to say, though, that my favorite part of the book was the showdown at the Dairy Queen. Sure, I've read it in a million books before (and probably better), but I was still all "YOU GO GIRL." I guess I really have something against mean girls.

Chachic: I liked that scene as well, Melissa. And now I want a Dairy Queen blizzard. Also, am I the only one who likes Hannah's dresses? I think it's cool that she makes her own designs and that she's very creative about them.

Donna: I'm wondering if Brenna works better in short story form based on the comments. Her works in The Curiosities was really good but I didn't find the same focus and depth here.

Heidi: The idea that an author can flush out more from her story/characters in a few pages than she can in a full length novel is pretty interesting, actually. Maybe the focus on the short page length forces her to cut out all the unnecessary crap and really develop? I do want to read The Curiosities still. And The Replacement for that matter.

Angie: You can't picture him with a shaved head and tattoos, Chachic? I picture him as Bran from Son of the Shadows all the time...

Heidi: Oh! And speaking of aspects of the story that never went anywhere/didn't need to be there, wtf was up with the dead birds?

Chachic: Angie, oooh Bran. Now that you pointed it out, he would make a good Bran indeed.

Sya: Firstly, yes to RA. Obvs. Secondly, I totally forgot about the birds! They kind of move this book from confused to just downright poor. I'd like to take certain aspects and write them into a better story. You could do a lot with Hannah's loss of a childhood friend and the murder scenes loss of childhood theme, not to mention her and Finny's easy resignation to the roles thrust upon them by others. I agree that the Conner aspect was ridiculous in light of the fact that he barely appears in the book. The writing style was actually pretty interesting but I think it's a case of style over content. I felt similarly about The Replacement where the writing was fantastic but the plot formulaic. I also find her characterisation in both her short stories and novels curiously cold and remote. I never particularly feel for the protagonists. Saying that, I've really enjoyed her shorter stuff.  Also, Chachic, if you can't imagine Richard Armitage with a shared head and tattoos then you are, quite simply, NOT TRYING HARD ENOUGH.

Melissa: I liked her dresses. And I thought the dead birds were there to place the story slightly in the past, you know, when we were all afraid of West Nile Virus. But even that was pointless because it never went anywhere. There was a good story in here, somewhere, I'm just not sure she ever really found it.

Holly: Melissa and Chachic, I did like her dresses at the beginning, but then I felt her personality never reflected her style. By the end I wished Hannah was as quirky as her wardrobe. What didn't help is that I read another YA contemp recently where the MC sewed her own clothes. I can't remember which one. I hope it's not becoming a trend.

Chachic: Holly, yeah, her dresses don't really reflect her style because she wants to give the image of being bright and happy even if that's not how she really feels. I guess it kind of represents her personality in the sense that she always says she's okay even if she's not. Does that make sense? I think I liked her dresses because they seemed distinct.

Holly: What I also realized about horror/paranormal in general is that I prefer more development and explanation behind the paranormal aspects. I think Paper Valentine will be most successful for the contemporary reader who likes a little bit of paranormal thrown in to keep things interesting. I don't want ghosts appearing randomly and haunting without reason. It seems kind of pointless to me if there's no compelling reason behind the haunting and if there's not a very clear explanation for why a ghost can finally rest in peace. I would've loved to see that happen with Lillian. And the dead birds? Another potential interesting plot point wasted. Ugh, this book. It frustrates me. I don't enjoy writing negative reviews but I may have to in this case for the proper healing to take place.  Thank God I have you YAcks for venting and consoling purposes. True, Chachic. Her dresses reflect her desired image, or maybe the way she used to be before Lillian died. It would've been great if Hannah's emotional state was explored more. Or Lilian's anorexia. Or the ghosts. Or the murder investigation/serial killer theme. Brenna just needed to narrow down the issues in PV and concentrate on developing a few with more depth.

Sya: Yes, what Holly S Grierson said. Exactly.

Chachic: Yep, it would have been great if the book got to focus on a few key issues.

Donna: I just kind of thought, in regard to her dresses, that they were one of the last bastions of Lillian she had. Hannah doesn't strike me as someone that actually has her own personality and would more readily bend to the will of someone else. She dressed the way she did because of Lillian and she maintained at after her death because 1) she doesn't have her own personality and 2) it was that and that Alice bracelet she had that was left. Now that I think about it she didn't have much of an independent personality in any of the story. Even when she started biting back with her awful friends (seriously, how low is that girl's self esteem to keep friends like that?) by her own admission she was becoming Lillian. So yeah. Either she needs to find another overbearing bitch to mold her into something or find out who she really is.

...and at this point we all largely lost interest and started a new discussion on St. Clair.  Because sometimes, you just have to do these things.  More importantly, though, welcome to....

Who Would Richard Armitage Play

As you know, we cast him as Decker.  Here is the EVIDENTIAL PROOF that he could carry the role:

Sadly, the general concensus on Paper Valentine was that, while positively brimming with potential, it was all a bit...meh.  Read more of what some of us had to say below.

Reviews:
Melissa @ Book Nut

Chachic @ Chachic's Book Nook